Allowable words question

[freosan]

So, I've hit a bit of a snag in my word creation and I'm curious. How did you decide what the restrictions were on phoneme positions in your language? I'm particularly interested if you allow consonant clusters: how did you decide which consonants were or were not permitted to occur together?

I've been trying just saying the words aloud a lot, but in some cases I'm not sure if I'm having trouble because English doesn't have the phonemes I'm using, or because it actually would be physically difficult to pronounce no matter what.

Also, does anyone else have syllabic consonants, and if so, under what circumstances do you let that happen?

Comments

[anke]

Sorry, not much of a help here. At least for my first language I'd like one I can actually pronounce myself, so I just go by what I can say.

[clare_dragonfly]

In Artash, only two-consonant clusters are permitted, and they have to be two different types: a stop and a glide, a stop and a fricative, or... uh... I think that's it, actually, though the order can be swapped of course.

In Talani, I think I just go with whatever sounds good XD

[freosan]

Ah-hah! Why did you decide on that combination? Was it just the way that worked best for you when you were speaking it?

[clare_dragonfly]

Nope, haven't even really tried speaking any Artash words. It's just the characteristics of those types of consonants--glides are also known as semi-vowels, so they're easy to put next to other consonants, and fricatives have similar qualities. I'm pretty sure there's something about it in my linguistics textbook...

[freosan]

Hmmmm okay so it is a known linguistic phenomenon, and that means I have to go study the languages that have retroflex consonants and see what they do with them. Thanks!

[clare_dragonfly]

Good luck!

[becka_sutton]

It's probably best to go for fairly simple phonotactics on your first language.

So Island is (C)V(stop or nasal) for its syllables.

Mountain Sea is (C)V(C) or (V)CV - this does give me some potential syllables I don't like and I'm considering how best to get rid of them.

No dipthongs or consonant clusters in either. Some of the descendents will develop them though.

[freosan]

I decided to be an idiot and do the language of the culture that uses speech, and very precise speech at that, as a locus for magic, so every decision I make tends to go 'well do they /really/ need that many phonemes/cases/tenses/etc - yes I guess they do'. Simple isn't really an option here, culturally. >.> Next language is going to be (C)V all the way.

That aside, this is the kind of thing I'm wondering about. Why a stop or a nasal at the end? Why not allow the fricatives and so forth? Was that just a decision you came up with out of thin air, or did you look at some Earth language to do it?

[becka_sutton]

A little of column a and a little of column b.

Virtually all Malayo-Polynesian languages forbid consonant clusters. I think most of them are (C)V and Island is supposed to sound vaguely like that. I want a few more syllables than that so I thought about the consonantal mora n in Japanese (which isn't Malayo-Polynesian but hey) as in konbanwa it effectively is a nasal at the end of syllable (since it often mutates to an m sound as well). M and n still didn't give me the variety of syllables so I added the stops in because I felt like it.

I think the means that Island is a mora language. It's highly unlikely my Islanders are literate but if they are they'll have a syllabary with a symbol for each (C)V combination plus the nasals and stops.

[becka_sutton]

For languages with consonant clusters it's hard to beat Nuxálk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nux%C3%A1lk_language#Syllables

Which reminds me this might be useful in working out what can go in what order in a consonant cluster. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonotactics#Sonority_hierarchy